Lord, please look upon this gathering tonight. Give our city officials the wisdom and the knowledge they need to make proper decisions for what we're going to be asking them to do tonight. And we look for you to guide them in making their proper decisions. Amen.
Amen.
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What? Oh, okay. Council
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Thank you, Madam Clerk. Once I get
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‸ get everybody still, I'd just like to take a moment of silence for our fellow human beings. ‸ Mankind, womankind. We just need to be kind to one another.
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I ask that we all pray for all families here in the great United States.
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Okay. Moving on to item number 2-1, Agenda, regular meeting of May 24, 2022. Motion
to approve with one amendment to move consent item 5-6 to Council Business 8-3.
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I've asked questions about this and wasn't able to get, at that time, with Stockton all the answers. I think it's something that everyone here will be interested in.
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That's some consent. There's been a motion. Second.
Second by home. Okay, there's been a motion on the floor. Councilwoman calls to move item number, consent agenda item. You said 5?
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have we been affiliated with?
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Uh,
several contract cycles. Yeah.
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No, sir.
‸ And I would like to make a point of saying moving something from the consent agenda does not mean there's a problem with
it
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per se.
It
means you have questions in the public. You may even have questions that the public wants to know about under consent for those that don't know.
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Whereas when something is taken out under city business, there's an opportunity to ask questions.
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And we have the weekend and Monday and even all the way up to today.
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Nature.
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We have a motion
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Um, what is your motion again, ma'am?
The motion is to approve the agenda with one amendment to move consent item 5-6 to Council Business 8-3 so that we can at least ask questions and discuss it.
And we have a second by Councilman
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And just to say that moving something off the consent agenda does not mean that you have a disagreement with it, as much as there may be information that is of interest to you or the public. I met for two hours with the city manager and he did not have an answer to one of my questions. So that
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opportunity to discuss it.
Well Mr. Walsh has been here for eons since I've been a councilman and I trust his judgment. And that's all. I'm gonna call the question.
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there be a henry? That's all I'm saying. ‸ And if you didn't get one then you can go straight to the source which is Mr. Walsh by way of the city manager as well. ‸ He's fairly knowledgeable. I will bank on him. I know he's knowledgeable.
There's no question he's knowledgeable.
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I'll do
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favor by saying aye. Aye. Any nays? Nay. Let the record reflect four one excuse me four yes and one nay. So this will go to council business that particular item. To yes 8-3. That is correct sir. Okay seeing nothing under minutes awards and presentations. All right this week proclaiming May 15th through the 21st 2022 as emergency medical services week. Chief Lamb, sir, would everyone please stand and go down front because then after that we're going to be talking about the National
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Mr. Mayor.
Sir yes sir. Let's go down for the.
I just have a proclamation to read in for EMS week.
Thank you sir.
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Yes sir. So we got
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Thank you
Mr. Mayor. Yes sir.
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improves the survival and recovery rate of those who experience sudden illness or injury. ‸ And whereas, emergency medical services has grown to fill a gap by providing important out-of-hospital care, including preventative medicine, follow-up care, and access to telemedicine.
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paramedics, emergency medical dispatchers, firefighters, police officers, educators, administrators, pre-hospital nurses, emergency nurses, emergency physicians, trained members of the public, and other out-of-hospital medical care providers.
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in thousands of hours of specialized training and continuing education to enhance their life-saving skills, and whereas, it is appropriate to recognize the value and the accomplishments of emergency medical services providers by designating Emergency Medical Services Week. Now, therefore, I, Mayor Michael C. Blake, on behalf of the City Council of the City of Cocoa, Florida, do hereby proclaim the week of May 15th through the 21st, 2022, as Emergency Medical Services Week. With the EMS strong theme, this year's EMS week theme will be Rising to the Challenge. I encourage the community to observe this week with appropriate programs and ceremonies and activities. Wherefore,
I
have unto set my hand and cause the seal of the City of Cocoa to be affixed this 24th day of May, 2022. Mayor Michael C. Blake.
Let's give
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I would like to say, if you don't mind, Chief Lamb, you do a phenomenal job, but Chief Lamb's
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And we've all been busy attending as council and staff graduations. So ‸ that speaks volumes. And I love that because knowledge is power.
And
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Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
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And we have our very own. And he's getting ready to read into some important information as well. But
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Thank you, Chief Lamb.
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We're really in
the sea of orange on that. Good color,
right?
Awesome.
Okay.
‸ Okay.
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All right.
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Okay. Go ahead.
All right.
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it couldn't have come at a more appropriate time as we are steady seeing gun violence around the nation. So I think this is an appropriate time to read in this proclamation. I'd like to give a big thanks to Moms Demand Action, who has been a big advocate in stopping gun violence in the community and advocating on behalf of victims and survivors. So whereas ‸ every day more than 100 Americans are killed by gun violence alongside more than 230 who are shot and wounded, and on average there are more than 1,300 ‸ gun homicides every year, whereas Americans are 25 times more likely to die by gun homicide than people in high-income countries,
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deaths per 1,000 people, Florida has the 27th highest rate of gun deaths in the U.S., and whereas gun homicides and assaults are concentrated in cities with more than half of all firearm-related gun deaths in the nation occurring in 127 cities, and whereas cities across the nation, including in Cocoa, are working to end the senseless violence with evidence-based solutions, and whereas protecting public safety in the communities they serve is mayor's highest responsibilities, and
where
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support for the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding citizens goes hand-in-hand with keeping guns away from people with dangerous histories,
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familiar with local criminal activity and how to address it, and are best positioned to understand how to keep citizens safe, and whereas gun violence prevention is more important than ever, as COVID-19 pandemic continues to exaggerate, exaggerate, exaggerate, if they gun violence, after more than a year of increased gun sales, increased calls to suicide and domestic violence hotlines, and increased in-city gun violence,
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age of 15,
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people across the United States will recognize National Gun Violence Awareness Day and
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gun violence and the loved ones of those victims, whereas the idea was
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to commemorate her life by wearing orange. They chose this color because hunters wear orange to announce themselves to other hunters when out in the woods, and orange is a color that symbolizes the value of human life, and whereas anyone can join this campaign by pledging to
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about gun violence and honor the lives of gun violent victims and survivors, And whereas we renew our commitment to reduce violence and pledge to do all we can to keep firearms out of the wrong hands and encourage responsible gun ownership to help keep our children safe. Now, therefore, the mayor Michael C. Blake, on behalf
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first Friday in June,
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Violence Awareness Day. I encourage all citizens to support their local communities' efforts to prevent the tragic effects of gun violence and to honor and value human lives.
Let's give him a round of applause.
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So before we proceed, I just want to see if you all have anything that you want to say.
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Thank you very much. So my name is Connie Rook. I am the communications lead with Moms Demand Action here locally in Brevard County. The other day, last week, I went to the VA clinic. I'm a veteran also to get my COVID booster, and I was stopped by five different people that asked me, so how do we stop gun violence? And it's an excellent question. And there is ways to do it. Things like safe gun storage, universal background checks, mentoring programs with the youth in the community, and mental health support in the community as well. So there is ways to make it happen.
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stop gun violence. So you're doing it and making it happen.
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it is hard. I will grant you that. It is hard. It's awkward. It's intimidating. And by gosh, it's ‸ political, and nobody wants to talk about it. But if we're going to solve it, we have to be able to talk about it. And this is why this proclamation is so powerful and important. And I want to thank you, Mayor Blake and the council members here.
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do this. And when we, after Parkland, they were the only city that agreed to do this this year,
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thank you very much. We appreciate it. And wear orange on Friday. Thank you very much.
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right over there?
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You need to be a part of this sea of orange. Let's give the moms a round
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‸ Clearly labeled. Education is the pivotal part that we all need to understand. Open up that line of communication through education. And that's, again, knowledge.
is
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power.
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Even though we have a little sorrow, it's still celebrating the great things that we as human, mankind, and womankind can do together collectively. So thank you. Our win numbers. All right, let's give them a round of applause.
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Quick picture.
Okay,
everybody ready for a picture?
Yes.
‸ Ready?
One, two,
three.
Cheese. And gun violence. Again, let's give them a round of applause. So, also, before you all leave,
I just want to say we will have a number of events going on during ‸ gun violence awareness week. There will be a...
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Saturday the third.
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Saturday the fourth, and this will be at the Rockledge.
It's at Provost Park. The rally is at Provost Park, and then
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Rockledge.
Okay.
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Come
on.
So, Saturday at Provost Park, we are going to have a community rally.
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awareness, and we have tabling ‸ from our community partners. And then on Sunday evening at seven o'clock, we are working with the city of Rockledge, and we're going to have a remembrance ceremony for survivors. Kind of a moment of reflection, a luminary candle ceremony for the survivors in our community.
Gotcha.
Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you all for coming tonight.
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the list will be Mr Ron
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Please come forward, sir.
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Thank you,
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Can
I say something before you
start
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Absolutely, Mayor.
I would be remiss if I didn't acknowledge
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that was given to you
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Thank you, Ron Chabot. Live in District 1, just bought a house in District 4, so I'll be moving there. I went to one of the Citizen Cares meetings and saw my name on a
board
last council meeting here and saying that I was part of the group that thinks that we're being censored. And I just want the mayor and council, staff, chief, I don't feel censored. If I got something to say, I'll say it.
Yes. So,
Ms. Lorty, she's very passionate about what she does, but I also felt from that one and only meeting I went to that the narrative, she was trying to control the narrative, and that's why I didn't go back. So, she is very passionate, and I respect her, but she does not speak for me as a citizen. I do not feel censored. I always try to keep things positive in life, and I have raised my children and my employees on
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And there's a lot
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And
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This is a great city, and
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there. I would be remiss without saying I support, strongly support, a millage rate increase to give the chief of police additional police officers, because he needs it.
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and I support it 100%. Other than that, thank you, and we'll see you next time.
Well said.
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Good evening. Thank
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We provide affordable housing solutions. We have 95 properties across the county. Half of those
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independence
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our clients. And we're here to thank you.
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And you cannot read anything, hear anything, nowadays without hearing about affordable housing. The problem is everybody talks about it, but nobody's doing anything about it. Well, not quite nobody. Because I'm here to thank the council for approving our rezoning that you approved last. And also within the council and the audience, the overwhelming level of support, the idea of doing affordable housing, because we're going to be building next year 90 units in this city of affordable housing. So thank you. You're doing something about it. You're not just talking about it. So we appreciate that. Let me introduce my
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too.
Yes.
So last November, we became aware of a lien on one of our properties and we took action to
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So we applied for the lien reduction program. And as a 501c3 nonprofit organization, we don't really budget for extra things like this.
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Every dollar that we have to put toward things like this is a dollar we can't spend on the housing and supportive services that
we provide
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to our clients. The code board and the city council generously reduced our
lean
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amount to
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that the city incurred
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payment. Shortly thereafter, we received notice that an anonymous donor had paid our debt on the 20th and our check was returned. ‸ So we are grateful, truly grateful, for the leniency afforded to us by the city.
And
tonight, I want to say thank you, especially to our anonymous donor.
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relationship with you all.
We're here to stay.
Absolutely.
I
want you
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Thank you. Thank you.
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mayor and council staff I'm here tonight I'm to represent aging matters which is
an
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organization geared to helping seniors right now I am the site manager at the beautiful Jolie Smith seniors at lunch program which aging matters moved from Martin Anderson senior center to Jolie Smith we have a great program there
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so I'm here to
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of what we're doing there. It's a lunch provided free for 60 people that are 60 years and older. And it's also crafts, bingo, dancing. Today we had a tea party. It's more than just a meal. And ‸ it's important to seniors to get out of the house and come be with other people, especially after the two years we've had of shutdowns and closed down so I'm just here to ask staff and a council for all the help they can get, even you know police departments if you have people that are looking for places I have brochures I'd like to leave with you or to pass around. And my numbers on here. You can come any day ‸ the week
where they're
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Monday through Friday ten to one and if you call me the day before we
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which is awesome. Beautiful job there that's happening. And the Jolie Smith is the gem of that area and we're hoping that this year the pool can get done so we can have seniors doing aqua size and
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so this is Dina she's one of our clients she comes every day and enjoys it I'm just looking for help from y'all and to promote the business of this, lunch program. so we don't, because if we don't get the numbers up
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and
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a really great facility so that's that's all I have
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that will be participating in this. Even my church, I shared it with them. So my thing is to get all churches involved. I think it's imperative.
It's a really, really great program. And, you know,
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until I got into this and realized that it's not the lunch, it's being with other people. So, yes, it's very important. I know I appreciate everyone's help.
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Yes, the opening.
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Yes, sir. Thank you. Do you guys have a digital flyer for the
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to use it for social media? And things of that nature. Do you have one?
No, but if you call the main office, they might be able to help you with that.
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They probably will be able to help you with that.
Okay.
I'm just in the field. Oh, I
got you. Well,
I
was going to do one for you for free.
Oh, and so,
so what I, what I, what I, this is what I'll do. I will get the brochure.
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one so that, you know, the most powerful thing right now is social media. Yeah. Um, so we can get it out there through social media, through radio shows or whatever we need to do. I think one of the biggest issues as well is the transportation for the seniors getting to the,
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Right. So that's another conversation piece we
can
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get with some churches in the area who have maybe retired members that may can possibly use their vans or whatever the case may be to help the seniors get to the location. Okay. I know
that aging matters is
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So
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is the, is the problem and that would help anything that we can do to help. Okay. Great.
All right. Thank you. I'll be in contact. I appreciate you.
All right. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
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Good evening, everyone. My name is Anita Gibson. I live at
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[address]. First of all, I'd like to thank Mayor Blake, the City Council and others for the proclamation that was done a few minutes ago. That's
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tonight is on another note. I met with two ladies. One lady in particular has a two-year-old son. And this is more of a plea or an outcry for this person because it's on my heartstrings for the last three days. She's been
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And whenever her payday is, then she gets a motel or friends that ‸ she
could
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pay them to live there for a day, a week, or whatever. ‸ But with the two-year-old child in tow, living in and out of your car,
is
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just unsanitary. And we have to all remember and think that if God takes his hands off of any one of us, we can have a hard fall and fall on hard times. So I'm here to plea. I'm ‸ giving out my personal phone number for the lady to get housing. She has a job. She works at the nursing home in Rockledge.
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that God touches their heart, to call and get this young lady out of her car, out
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to get her somewhere to live. And there's another young lady that's disabled,
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So all I'm crying and pleading out to somebody is to get these people out ‸ their car. It's very unsanitary. It's a heartfelt thing that I feel.
And
the last three days, I've just been thinking, thinking, calling agencies, and everybody says,
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We'll get back with you whenever something's available.
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to do whatever they can going forward. So if there's anybody that can
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that can tell me where this young lady, the two ladies,
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somewhere to live, they have income, and so forth and so on. So if somebody can get a hold of me, I would really appreciate it. Thank you for your time.
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to address concerns along with blessings from you.
‸ I have my light up. Yes, ma'am.
I'm
coming. Thank you. Yes, ma'am.
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Thank you very much.
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Yeah, they have, Mrs. Gibson, have you contacted the Family Promise of Brevard? Because they are specifically, this is specifically the type of thing that they tackle.
‸ Yes, and they mentioned that you have to call, get online, and fill out an application, and then they'll get back with you as they have the resources. But I'm kind of more anxious to get them something like yesterday. I can't sleep at night knowing that she's in her car.
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got a two-year-old child in tow. And it's just unsanitary. It's just not the way to live when one of us, each one can reach one or reach somebody to get this lady out of her car. She goes to work in the morning, come back in the car, get the baby back in the car, or get a friend, I'll give them a couple of dollars on her paydays, let them stay a couple of weeks, and then it's just something can't be done. And I'm going to push the other little girl until something is done for both of them.
Did Dr. Moore and Rob Cramp already leave?
Yes.
Okay. So they're good resources as well. Okay. Thank you.
Matthews Hope. Ms. Gibson, I'm just letting you throw that out. Yeah, I called
them, and they're based out of Orlando. And they're supposed to start on the forest, but they said they're not ready for that yet. Right. So I have to go to the one apartment. Right.
But you know what, ma'am? That's where our church is coming. Yeah. That's where the church is coming.
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Central Life under the leadership of Ryan Alonzo, Pastor Randy Alonzo, they're on the move. And rest assured, ma'am, it has hit the airwaves. Yes. That's a little more. Yes. Thank you. Thank you, ma'am. Kristen Lorty.
Good evening, council members and mayor.
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the Coco Care Citizens Group. So I sent you all a statement this afternoon, but I know there's only been a little bit of time since then to review it, so I'd like to cover a bit of it during my talk right now. My petition this evening is about the workshop on Thursday from 10 to 4 p.m., where I hope there is a great community turnout, 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. on Thursday, to discuss the budget and priorities. And
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I appreciate the comment from earlier and that the gentleman was able to attend one of our Coco Cares meetings.
[00:38:37] ▶ Play Speaker 20 (introduced as “Tammy Carter” — machine-transcribed, not verified) + overlapping voice · overlapping voices
And so I'm
grateful for that. I want to continue on with my comment tonight, which is about being informed and participating in the workshops. So because of my concern that I've shared before about final decisions made at city workshops in the 2021 meetings, and in 2022 in workshops rather than council meetings, what I did was I completed a review of the April 2021 meeting minutes to understand exactly how much or get an idea of how much city business was decided during those meetings. So I looked over the three meetings on April 16th, 19th, and 26th. And what I found was that
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and just five of the council members were present and voted at all of the 20 motions that were passed. Per the city council resolution, city council workshops are typically scheduled to consider certain items which are not ready for final action. It also states that these workshops provide council with an opportunity to discuss the topic of the workshop session among themselves and with city staff. Last year at the third workshop, which we're about to
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12 actions were passed and
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Why does this matter?
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action at council workshops? The issue is that the workshop voting deprives the public of the right to be heard at a regularly scheduled council meeting and with adequate background materials to be informed of the decisions that are being made. As many are aware, there were protested actions from the 2021 workshops that may have been reduced by using the standard voting process where votes are taken at regularly scheduled council meetings and the public has a right to be heard before each vote.
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that according to the city policy, the mayor will offer the public an opportunity to speak to that item before the decision was made. There was a surprise at the last meeting where I exercised that right and I had to jump up and say, hey, I'd like to make a comment on that. So I want to cover this now. Any final action that may occur at the workshop requires the mayor to offer the public an opportunity to speak. It will be a help to members of the public for Mayor Blake to offer this opportunity to all attendees present at Thursday's session. Thank you.
Thank you very much. Do we have any other cards? Madam Clerk. Say no additional cards.
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will proceed on to item number five. What are the wishes of council? Those will be approved. We have a motion
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Second.
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We're going to call the question.
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Aye.
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So we
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Provide direction to staff, funding, and new policies if necessary for the Indian River to drive septic to sewer conversion. Mr. Walsh will talk about this, but there are some concerns here as well. As you know,
as you know,
we have four options that are presented to us. And I know we have members from various organizations that will be talking about this. I have,
in
this order, when we open it up to the public, Bill Riddle.
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Yes. Dr. Soto? Frank Sullivan?
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Very good, sir. Thank you.
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Astrid Hurd? Jeannie? Dave? Al Vasquez? Troy?
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Orender,
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And is it Dan? Is it Dan Womack?
Yes.
Thank you.
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Kristen Lorty? Tammy Carter?
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Oh, no. Guglis?
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Where you at, Anthony? Okay, I just wanted to make sure you guys heard your name so you will be recognized. Mr. Walsh, sir, I know you have a PowerPoint presentation, but I can share it with us.
I do, sir.
Yes,
sir. Are we ready? Mayor, I have to, I have my light on. I need to recuse myself for this item. Okay. So,
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recusing myself for this item since I have one of the 92 homeowners. ‸ And I have,
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this over to the clerk and step down from the dais for the discussion.
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Yes, sir, we're ready. Okay. We're ready. Thank you. Uh, so yes, I prepared a PowerPoint in support of this agenda item because it's fairly complex,
uh,
fairly involved. So I thought it needed, uh, some, some additional information. Um, I did participate last week in a community meeting ad hoc that was created by the community, uh, answered some questions, some technical questions at that meeting. Uh, I'm hoping that this PowerPoint will reflect the options, uh,
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each of the options. Um, of course, I'm, I'm here to answer your questions as you go. So just let me know and I will proceed at this point. So let me go over the agenda. So I'm going to do just a quick overview, a couple of slides. We'll talk about what septic to sewer is and then the advanced septic, which is another option within the save our Indian river lagoon program that we could also opt for. Um, I will go over the council options as described in the agenda item. Uh, I will also kind of go over advantages and disadvantages of each of those options.
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costs. There's some slides in there as well. And then I'm going to kind of end on a final slide where it kind of shows you the grants and grant opportunities that are available associated with this project. So really quick, uh, I don't think it's any secret. The half a penny sales tax has been in for a few years. So we, it's collecting money and, and those dollars are going at the projects that are assisting the lagoon. Uh, it's primarily phosphorus and nitrogen, uh, that were, that were interested in. But of course there are other pollutants associated with, with, uh,
um,
discharge to the river that are also being addressed.
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the city as well as other folks up and down the coast. Uh, the Tetra tech report, those are the consultants who originally prepared the report. They do an update typically each year. Um, so all the information that I got was from that report from the 2022 and that's available on the Brevard County save or Indian river lagoon website if you're looking for it.
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things that are in that report. But the two that were most applicable for us are the septic to sewer as our project was originally conceived and then the advanced septic, which is another option that we could consider. So as we talk about this project, it's really important to understand that there's kind of two different things that we need to really look at. There's the public infrastructure costs, which are primarily the hard pipe in the ground, the manholes and everything that occurs in the right of way of Indian river drive. Uh, and then there's also homeowner expenses impact fees connections abandonment of the septic tank and so on the restoration of the property.
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there are kind of two different things going on there that potentially could be available for funding and or reimbursement or grants. The two areas that we're talking about, I listed the addresses there specifically, so I'm not going to go over them, but they're, they're up there. And the next slide is a map just kind of giving you a visual if you're not familiar with the area. So
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as you can see, Dixon is kind of the big gap in the middle and the area in
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The area of South, obviously South addiction. So that's the
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Uh,
so no secret septic to sewer is about hard pipe and manholes. Um, the challenge of course associated with this particular project is the location and the geology that's there. There's a ton of Coquina rock that that makes this project very, very difficult and very expensive relative to normal construction. Uh, on the homeowner side, um, if they were, if we were to go forward with this septic kind of project, there would be costs associated with providing the service like any service to the city. Um, the base fee is $18, 1846 a month at zero use and up to $108 at 12,000 gallons or more. So it's capped at 12,000 gallons. So if a customer uses more than 12,000 gallons of water, their bill is constant on the sewer side. If they use anything less than
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And that's kind of a graphic depiction of, of those costs.
Uh,
I kind of threw this as a, uh, just a slide. People kind of were talking about the advanced septic. I think some of the homeowners have already started looking at websites. Essentially the, the, the big component of the advanced septic is introducing oxygen into the, into the septic tank. When you do that, it becomes an aerobic process. You get a lot more removal efficiency. Uh, there are other things that can enhance that, which I'm not going to go into, but basically that that's the primary, the primary difference. There, there's some with, I think with even mixers in them, but, uh, depending on what you select. Um,
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Obviously we take everything when we
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when we put it in a pipe. If we put it into an advanced septic system, you get 65% removal. So there is some stuff that still goes to the river.
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And it also is endorsed by tetra tech and
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I didn't dig too deep. It's pretty variable depending on what people do. Uh, based on what I heard, people were wondering like what the costs were. I put the website there on the bottom. So if you're interested, you can go there and other places,
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customer cost. If with an advanced septic system, uh, there's an air pump that needs to be maintained. Uh, maybe some other things that need to be looked at and they also do like services where they're checking other things and you're going to end up paying for that.
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a service provider.
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Okay. There's four options as outlined in the agenda item, uh, ‸ advanced septic and septic to sewer. The first two, uh, the septic to sewer. The third one is really the non mandatory being the difference being the option two is, is, is an option is a option that that is considering making it a mandatory connection. And I'll explain why and what the difference is. Uh, and then option four, I added that, uh, just last week, I guess, as I was finishing this up was, uh, I'd heard some folks were, were also thinking about maybe, maybe there would be a better time. Maybe construction costs might go down and so on, so on. So maybe, maybe deferring might be an option as well. So I added that.
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do as a city is because we're already encumbering, if you will, or have been allocated money by save our Indian river lagoon. Uh, we would have to withdraw that money, um, or our interest in that septic project in the, in the hard piping project. And when we do so, that would free up all the residents along Indian river drive to apply for the advanced septic allocation. Uh, the resources are about $18,000 per lot as identified on the, uh, on the website from the department of natural resources.
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some kind of a mandatory collective participation in order to qualify is my understanding.
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to, to, to, um, to move forward with the septic to sewer. Uh, we have 92 lots that are currently able to be served with this hard pipe system.
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and we would need a policy in order to do that. Our current policy and that's attached as part of your agenda packet. Uh, there is a caveat in there that if they have a working septic systems that we can't force them to connect.
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and really probably even
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They're really, they want 100% participation or thereabouts. So,
uh,
it's very difficult to go forward without a 100% participation with that contract. Um, I also noted that we could, and if we could get people or if council would choose to do a mandatory connection and make a policy to do that, uh, that we could also qualify for additional grants on top of the save our Indian river lagoon money. So those two things combined could cover the costs, um, and that would greatly help, of course, getting that project moving. Uh,
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St. John's and DEP, uh, to also cover or look to cover their septic cost removal service line and so on and so on the impact fees, et cetera.
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as previous only that non mandatory, which is essentially what we have right now.
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don't have a mandatory policy right now. Um, and there's a lot of problems with that because it doesn't allow us to maximize the save our Indian river lagoon allocations.
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lots connect,
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we currently have 92 that can actually physically be connected. So that
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So if anybody less for every
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city or residents would have to make up that difference. So that makes that project very difficult to do.
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engineer. It ranges
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And because we're dealing with rock and digging and construction and underground, there's a lot of unknowns and that's why we have that variability.
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construction and as, as more and more people don't connect the cost to the city or to the homeowners would rise. Any questions so
far?
I keep moving.
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no action at this time. Um, we would maintain the allocation.
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Um, we would not be, um, the folks who are currently in the 92 ‸ in the zone that's been designated by the county would not be able to apply for septic to sewer or for advanced septic. There's been a couple of folks. I think she's already had failed septic. So we've had to come out of pocket and couldn't qualify for this because we're, we're, we've, they can only allocate money for one project at a time.
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would either withdraw the money or we would go forward with the project. If we withdraw it, freeze it up and actually the money comes out of a different pot for advanced septic on that other money for hard piping would go to another project that would be hard piping.
So,
um, and again, the delay may or may not increase costs. We just really don't know.
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is very high right now. Where will it be six months or a year or whatever later? I, I really couldn't predict. So the next couple of slides, I'm going back over the options quickly and I kind
of
wanted to break down advantages and disadvantages. Uh, there's probably a few that I've missed. So try not to hold me to everything. I tried to give you the most important ones, if you will, um, overall. Um, so advantages of doing the septic, the homeowners can immediately apply. Uh, so that's great. The thing gets moving very quickly. It avoids impact fees from the city. So that's advantage to the, to the citizens. Um,
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Uh, again, uh,
again,
for the citizens. Um,
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River Lagoon. If they're eligible. So,
uh,
it opens it up. It really gives the citizens the most flexibility and the most choice. So that option gives them the most choice. The disadvantages of course are, uh, saver Indian River Lagoon grant money may not cover all the costs, but may be eligible for additional grants. Um, the nutrients are still going to the river. So we're talking about a septic system. That might get 65% out, but still 35% is going there.
So
you still get a little bit of pollution. However, again, as part of the tech tech report, it's, it's endorsed by tetra tech and the program. So it is. ‸ It's not. It's not 100%, but it certainly is a viable option.
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from this ‸ kind of a project. On the advantages for the septic to sewer mandatory connection. Of course, it maximizes the amount amount of funds from Brevard County from the save our Indian River Lagoon group, which is 5.1 million that we're looking at. It allows the project to qualify for other grants. So we make mandatory connections. Then the other grants look at that extremely favorably and we can get money from them as well.
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So the areas, you know, basically from Indian River drive west to us one, a pill those areas as we were to do, say, for pipe replacement or other work or public works projects.
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that connection. That's the line of size so that everybody in there could could use that system in the future. So that's an advantage. It creates future revenues source for the city, of course, and
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So those are the major advantages. The disadvantages requires ‸ new connection policy and enforcement policy depending on what the council chooses, meaning if they choose to put some of that cost on citizens and we would have to have enforcement with it.
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The council would decide
who is
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paying for those
cost
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overruns only 92 homes are available due to the design constraints.
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Obviously staff, we would be chast with managing potentially multiple grants. And the homeowners can apply for St. John's river or DEP grants to cover those private costs such as installation, septic removal, homeowner grants from other agencies may not cover all the ‸ costs. So again, they would have and I can't speak for all of the grant and agencies.
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those things through. So the non mandatory, of course, removing the participation of the homeowners. I'm sorry, removes the participating homeowner sewer discharge from the river. That's a huge advantage for those who are participating, obviously creates a future revenue source for the city. I'll be a smaller ‸ than the previous and allows for the potential future expansion. On the disadvantage side. It doesn't maximize the funding that's available.
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So, uh, that creates potentially a funding problem. Uh, we may not certainly qualify for any other grants without mandatory participation. And council must decide who's paying for the cost overruns if that choice to go forward with the
hard
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project with a non mandatory hard pipe project.
Uh,
the delaying the septic to sewer no impacts to the customers of the city in the short term during ‸ uncertain times.
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course, and policy. So really just deferring it or delaying it costs may be lower or higher. We really just don't know. Uh, the grants and funding may or may not be available in the future. We hope that they were available and fairly healthy today.
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Um, and delays the improvements to the, uh, I mean, I, the water quality of the river. So by doing nothing now, we're not doing anything to help the river today. Uh, this slide is really a, um, kind of a breakdown of what I was talking about. So, um, at the top, I'll kind of walk you through it. I've got
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Our estimated costs vary from 6.6 to 8.2. And you can see that's constant no matter what, what we're looking at. We have design costs and engineering estimated costs for construction, which leaves us net funding for the project construction at about 1.6 to 3.2. If everybody participates and that's what we'd be seeking grants and so on to ‸ cover. Um.
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Then you can see what happens the on the right side in the bold, the costs of the infrastructure go up because we have less particip people participating in the project. Yes, sir.
So, I'm not being facetious, but can you see that? I mean, I know it's kind of small larger. Can we enhance that just a little bit? So that maybe the people in the back. Sure. So that they can see the actual connection made and the current cost based on the. ‸ Just a little larger. Please ma'am. Please, sir.
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Okay.
‸ Okay. So I'll just quick again, 100%. 5.1 million.
That's
the max we can get from Brevard County. If only 50% of the residents ‸ were to participate in a non mandatory type option, then we would only be able to. We would have to have, we would only be able to get 2.5 million dollars. Although the costs may still be in the 6 to 8 million dollar range,
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would be responsible for the either the city to pay. Or if the city would decide to pass that on as some kind of special taxing district and so on that would be passed on to the potentially to the homeowners, which I wouldn't obviously recommend with 92 lots. It doesn't make sense. So. Okay. Okay.
Okay.
Okay. Okay. This next box,
‸ you
can zoom in on that one too. Thank you. This is just a look at the, at the homeowner side. So this is the private side, if you will, the private costs, if you will. Again, just assuming on 92 to participate, it's really an estimate.
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If you're looking at costs to remove your septic repair on site, hardscape and landscaping costs to run a new service line, et cetera, et cetera. It's, it's just an estimate. Um, I think the projects that, that
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But I think we're going
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are bigger and your houses have large, much longer setbacks than the standard houses. I think that have been previously already been permitted and constructed where they had 30 and 40 foot setbacks, kind of like a normal lot. Whereas
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from the road. So, um, anyway, uh, just in the end, if you collectively looked at it, we would be seeking something like
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funding.
If
we were trying to get grants to make up those costs, if we did like the mandatory type connection, we collectively would try to seek that. And again, just recognize that we have to go in front of these agencies. We have to give them a cost estimate or something. And even if we give them a cost estimate,
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if all the costs come in higher, uh, that, that potentially could be, um, comes a problem or they're very difficult to renegotiate with. And so again, there could be some, some things that we can't control there when it comes to the grants. So I tried to do a quick summary.
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Yes, I appreciate it. Just a quick summary of, uh, 2 different funding sources. Typically
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has funds.
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So, and this would be for the public infrastructure, public infrastructure. So they have a cost share program that we could qualify for typically is a 25% maximum or $3 million. Um, and so that would yield us if we would count the $5.1 million. Uh, we could, uh, we would be capped at about
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for that grant. So you can see how if the, if
the
cost estimate is six point,
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Again, it leaves us a little bit short, gets us some money, but it doesn't quite get us there. If we were to go to approach DEP, um, they have a 319 grant that we would qualify for. They do like a 60 40 match. They would recognize the save our union river lagoon money as a, as the 60% match. So the 40% would get us some extra money. The 3.4 million that would get us about 8.5 million that gets us at the just above the cap. So that kind of gets us right where we want to be. So that potentially could work. Um, the applications role,
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So we would just have to, you know, catch up to the next cycle if we were to try to propose
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So, um, let's see if I can, can you zoom, can you just go back to normal view?
Yeah.
Thanks. Here we go. And zoom in on that side. Sorry, Rob. So the private funding, uh, I think same thing.
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they potentially would have, would, would potentially be able to go for that.
I
think that's the, that would probably be the preferable one, the 319.
Uh,
yeah, yeah.
Because
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homeowners to play for anything.
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the
homeowner
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So you can see, uh, you still need to kind of get folks to go together so that we can collectively go in and even grab a grant. So, um, anyway, so that kind of gives you where we were going with the grants.
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So if there's any additional questions, I can answer them.
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Goins. And, uh, we'll see if we have any other additional questions.
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Yes, sir.
How
many cities in Brevard County has either started projects, uh, or completed, uh, projects along the river?
Uh,
I
know that there's,
uh,
Palm Bay, I think has done two projects, but neither of
them
are by the river, but the
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discharged to the river. So they kind of did it.
It
was an inland project. Those are the two that I know about. There's several of them that are in process. And I actually, I met with the utilities director from Brevard County about two weeks ago. We're going to be looking at teaming up to an area north on our north side where potentially we might be able to pick up some of their flow from a project that's on the river because they don't have sewer nearby. So we're going to be working on that. And that obviously would come back to council for for approvals and directions.
‸ If we pick up their flow, are they going to provide us with funding?
Um, actually, I think they, I mean, we haven't negotiated everything yet, but I would imagine the way it would go would be they would receive the money. from save our near lagoon, just like we would, they would seek it. They would do the improvements and they would, and they would still remain in their service here. But we would do some kind of an interlocal agreement. We would agree to take their flow. So.
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I probably have more questions once the citizens, um, um, come up to speak afterwards as well. But I'm looking at the construction costs because construction costs right now. ‸ Absolutely crazy. I
know.
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get to that, if we get to that point. So this is just an estimate. They could possibly be lower possibly, which I don't think so. But, um, how, how are we going to handle that with the grants?
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One
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The next house man hole is at 25 feet away.
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that contractor is going to charge based on that particular address. Correct? Yep. So how do we, that's going to be tricky on getting the grants.
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So how, how,
how do we do it? Um, to satisfy the citizens to the 20 to 15 to 20 estimate. We're going to have to go in with a ‸ proposal
ballpark. Right.
An engineer's estimate as to what we think the cost would be.
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high side so that we don't come up short because we don't want to come up short. Gotcha. So I think that's probably the best approach, but it still has to be within reason. So somebody's going to review it.
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But if we have actual costs, because I'm looking at the cost pipe, just like you are, and it is going ballistic. And so, yeah, the, you know, as the cost of things go up, we can certainly make that justification to ask for more money associated with any kind of installation project to, again, the idea is that, you know, once one, especially with the homeowner, because the homeowner doesn't even have a backdrop. It's the homeowner.
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There's no, there's no real question there. Um, if it's the, ‸ if it's a public infrastructure,
uh,
potentially the utility, if, if it's chosen by this council, you could, you could make a policy or, you know, we could cover that cost beyond the grant. Or, you know,
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That would be, that would be part of the nuances of, of how you would approve it.
Okay. Thank you. Oh, the
mayor
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I would love to hear from, uh, the audience as well. So,
you know, I'm just letting you guys get your questions out because then they're going to stimulate some questions. That's going to intrigue you and also maybe come back with some additional ‸ questions. Yes, sir. For Mr. Walker. So that is the reason why, but I do applaud you for your comments. Um, and then I, we will hear from Deputy Mayor, uh, Hearn, but I have a question. And that's possibly for
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long will this opportunity for grants be available? That's the bottom line. And if we do fall short, if it is approved and we fall short of the budget, who absorbs the cost? That is the ultimate question because as many other people will say, I don't want to pay for someone else's misfortune because I'm struggling myself. And we're talking about hard, challenging economic times. So I'm just trying to see how long will this offering be on the table? Because even though Frank Sullivan, Port Commissioner, called me and I was driving,
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uh, uh,
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and that was the question. The availability. If you all don't mind, audience, let him expound on that. But I will open up the door to let you all collaborate and elaborate on this. Anthony, sir.
Thank you
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That's a 10 year has a 10 year timeframe for sunsets. So that's on setting is in 2017 or 2027. So starting 2017 goes through 2027. And,
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identified at the outset at the beginning of the plan. Um, the money could be reallocated at the cocoa decided to look for a different project or be reallocated to a different subject sort of project anywhere in the county.
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want to move forward. Um, so that's the
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The
state grants have, um, been building over the last few years. The current, um, political climate is, um, motivated to move from septic to sewer. So they have been putting more and more funding every year, um, towards that.
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year's grants are going to look like, but we,
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based on the political climate,
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there will be funds available.
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signed a contract or indicated that they're willing
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from when we did the 30, 60% design from about a year and a little over a year and a half ago almost. And that was, there was like 40 or 44 applications and the numbers in the agenda item and about 22 were not willing to spend any money. Now I know that they had two community meetings in the last couple of weeks and they, they were trying to take some polls. I don't know the results of any of that, but
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I think there's always going to be somebody who may have different ideas about whether they think they should do ‸ an advanced septic. Or do nothing or, or do the hard pride project or whether or not they would do the project if it
cost
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them anything. So unfortunately, those are always going to be in conflict.
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city's sewer.
Right. The current, the current ordinance under chapter 22, uh, that sub paragraph L talks about if there's an existing working septic system that they're not required to connect. So that's really where we are with the same, with the Indian river drive folks. Most people on there have a functioning septic and therefore if we would build this project, they're not required to, to connect.
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I look at option number four and I call that Frank Sullivan option. I know you're going to be related ‸ Frank, but don't worry.
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And if we do not have any more of the questions, then we'll proceed in the order that I appointed to the audience. Okay.
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Current grants that you
showed us, are you aware of any other grants out there that we could possibly seek?
Uh, I'm not. I, I, like
I
said, I, I kind of went to the, the big hitters, which is St. John's River water
management
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district. And ‸ the DEP. Um, and I think what, what Anthony was trying to say is, is, you know, there's been federal monies that have been fairly favorable coming down in different forms. Uh, and typically they allocate those things to the water manager district via the state.
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them up is really, I think is what we're seeing. So that means that more people could get more dollars and or more projects done.
So
my second question would be, uh, is there a state ordinance or law right now requiring, uh, residents. Uh, to hook up to, uh, sewage?
Yeah, I'm going to let, uh, maybe Anthony talk about the, the state requirement. Uh, I believe, I believe there is. Yeah.
I don't know the statute off the top of my head, but there is a statute, uh, regarding mandating sewer hookup.
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No,
sorry. Yeah.
Our
attorney.
Yeah.
Uh, city manager, ‸ you had your light on, sir. Okay. Uh, how many people will be willing in the audience? It's just in the audience
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I'm just, if you don't mind,
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your hand.
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And I know we're trying to be environmentally friendly. Right. Okay.
I think that's why we're all here. Yeah. We're probably all willing to connect, but it depends on some of the conditions.
Yeah.
Right. If I can get power
in
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numbers,
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this transition a lot more to, what are the odds of that?
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Seeing none from Council. Bill Riddle, please come forward and
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your name.
Thank you, Mr. Mayor and Council. Thank you for the opportunity to appear.
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that's what the item says, to provide direction to staff for funding and new policies. I would suggest that you provide them the guidance that they go back and do some more research. Okay. And case in point, Mr. Walsh, can you and your computer pull up this chart?
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it's Clemson orange or Gator
orange.
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Or Prevent Gun Violence orange.
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But
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it's the one that's orange.
It was in the agenda.
It's in the agenda?
Yeah, it's
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thank you. Okay, just looking at that chart today, I had some questions that I would ask of Mr. Walsh. First of all, in the septic going to sewer, if you do that, you have a line there that suggests that the sewer leaks. How much leakage are you
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is...
‸ Brand new service lines, brand new manholes, ‸ brand new pipe.
Okay. What is the cost of removing the nitrogen from the reclaimed water because I have reclaimed water in my yard I ran it today and I was thinking gosh I'm pumping nitrogen out into my river
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answer I think I would say you know our reclaimed water comes out extremely high quality that nearly meets the future
standard
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that requires us to be compliant by 2025 and so we have a couple of projects that are already slated in the CIP for this year and for next year to make us completely
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and phosphorus one part. So we're at about three and a half. That's actually in the Tetra Tech report, and we were actually, we're not designated to receive funds from save our Indian River Lagoon because we were one of the good guys We were not good guys, but we were the one of the guys who are pretty close to compliant,
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who had plants that are discharging to the river, were way, way above that. And so those folks were eligible for making improvements to the plant so they can bring that nitrogen number down.
And yet, and yet on your chart, you indicate that fully half of the amount of nitrogen that goes into the river
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reclaimed water
it's not my chart sir it's from it was from a presentation from Brevard County Natural Resources but I'd also bring your attention to the chart before
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The other one comes from the Tetra Tech report, which was just updated, and it kind of lists, it tells you that basically and this is updated each year but
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per year it's saying that the base septic flow sewer and
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it's also saying that the next closest is atmospheric deposition, which is basically rainwater and air, and
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are your top three contributors based on the latest revised report. Well,
it's always difficult in a presentation to have a completely consistent charts. It's something that you always should strive to do the other question I have about that chart and I understand it's not your chart okay, but
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of this? Is this the
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or is it just like where I live
now
is it between 520 and 528 Yeah,
those these these this chart was referenced from the Tetra Tech report, and it was from the north Indian River Lagoon Basin
what's this one where's this one ‸ I
think that's all county that's the
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houses out of the entire county I say I
provide all the information sir
I try
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to
give you a broad perspective
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up a little bit. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Mr. Bill. Ms.
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please come forward.
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the
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I want to thank you for the opportunity to provide comments on the proposed septic to sewer project along the Indian River that will affect these 92 homes. the in The information that most of the residents received at the recent citizens meeting have been informative and appreciated and we give thanks to mr. Walsh for attending and giving us further information. However, my takeaway is, and others, is the project is not fully funded with many additional expenses now if I were to ask you the question and forgive me
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and we know that the answer is no Today's economic and social turmoil makes all
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we have
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a contingency i believe that would impact if we're able to start the project the timeline that's been quoted of 14 months those factors would lengthen the construction on indian river drive perhaps taking it to 24 months or 36 months just because of those factors and it's hard to imagine the hardship and the stress that indian river drive property owners would experience during that time to begin this project with all funding to begin this project without all funding allocated is risky and fiscally irresponsible this really is the wrong time the wrong time to start this project um the city i request the city table this until all funds are allocated to the city and in the account for this project and i thank you for your time and i Thank you for all the information you've provided us.
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who's paying into the system. and And we all have family members will say, Mom, you love or Dad, you love so and so more than you love me. And then, you know, hey,
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doctor Soto.
Good evening, Mayor, Council members. Good to be here. Thank you for considering this important project. My name is Lisa Soto. I'm the Executive Director of the Marine Resources Council. We're a charitable organization dedicated to protecting and restoring our precious Indian River Lagoon Coastal Estuary. And we are also the organization that produces the report card every year, which I know
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compares the state's water quality and seagrass data with the state's target to really assess how well we're doing as a state dealing with our our water quality issues. You can see from the report card that the lagoon is failing again. um But
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and we're not really sure what's going on with water quality because the state only looks at nitrogen and phosphorus.
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two pollutants. There's a whole lot of other things out there in the lagoon. There's a whole lot of other things coming out of people's septic tanks besides nitrogen and phosphorus. So this is not just a story of nitrogen and phosphorus, with all due respect. It's a story about pharmaceuticals. It's a story about viruses, which are not treated by septic tanks either. It's a story about toxins and chemicals that are used for cleaning agents. Those things are being found in the lagoon by our sea turtles that now have human papillomavirus and tumors all over their bodies. And our dolphins, who have ‸ so much toxins in their bodies that when they give birth the first time, it's a stillborn calf. Firstborn dolphins are dead, every single one in the lagoon. And just as a sideline, the mother carries it around for months. Okay? So that's one point I want to make here. Septic tanks are not just discharging nitrogen and phosphorus. They're discharging a lot of other nasty things, emerging contaminants that we need to address. The second point, so this is an important topic and I appreciate you considering it. The second point I wanted to make is about the state statute.
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passing the Clean Waterways Act, which took the control of septic tank permitting and enforcement away from the Department of Health and gave it to the Department of Environmental protection so
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require that if you put a line down a road, the homers must hook up within a year, 365 days. So
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required to hook up, by then the DEP enforcement is going to be in place. ‸ They're going to have to pay for it ‸ themselves. I recommend you go for this project while you have a very highly motivated state and federal government throwing money at septic to sewer conversions like
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from our governor.
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at this. Do it now, because in the future, that money, especially the money to help the residents, may not be available.
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Thank you again for your time and your consideration
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Thank you, Mr. Mayor. um When you pulled me for saying the prayer, I should have said it a little bit, a little a little more prayer, I think.
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to all this. Anyway, my name is Frank Sullivan. I live at
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[address] […], but to plead with you to continue the process of investigating the possibilities of installing this
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of you pretty privately, and I know there are many unanswered questions relating to this project, but I urge you to continue seeking uh solutions rather than uh deny it and then going on without making every effort to gain the money that it's going to take to make this this project go. I know there are other people that are going to be looking at this money, so the sooner we get in the
ballgame
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and look for the grants, and I'm not sure we've got all the grants identified. uh It seems that there are other grants that are possible out there that could make this this project go a little more smoothly. So I hope we say aggressive in making in making the effort to to identify the grants before we deny anything that this project uh could go away. I mean,
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It's just as important as downtown
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it make it better for everybody, the better off we're going to be. So I appreciate the time as you're putting it on this, and I hope that you are very aggressive in trying to identify and go after the money before we say we can't do this project. Thank you. thank
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Thank you, um Mr. Mayor and Council. Thank you
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lot of vowels in it, but uh you did a pretty good job the first time around. um um ‸ I'm here to say that I think this issue is a very, very large long-term issue for this city, this community, this county. It's about more than residents being inconvenienced for periods of time or for perhaps having to add to our utility bills and things like that. This is about the livelihood of this entire
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intercoastal waterway
and
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this lagoon. I just can't imagine 10 years from now how we'd feel about a decision we make now if we have a dead river and we're looking at housing values that are plummeting and people not visiting and
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This is the kind of decision that you only regret if you don't do the right thing. And I know there are lots of issues. My neighbors here have identified a lot of them. And we don't know all the costs. We don't know if construction will be easy or difficult. I know we've got an 18 contingency because there are some variables. But those are things we're not going to regret.
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two
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project's done, we can look back and say we did the right thing. We
preserve
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the longevity of this
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You know, driving in tonight, I couldn't help. uh Kind of the light bulb came on when ‸ I drove in and saw that beautiful sign out there that says Historic Cocoa Village. And what do we choose as our logo for Historic Cocoa Village? The paddle boat out on the intercoastal waterway. That shows how important it is. Now, right now, we've got a project in front of us with most of the money there. That half cent sales tax is not going to be there forever. And costs are only going to go up. I know we're in inflationary times, but I've been an engineer for lots and lots of years, and costs don't go down. So the stars are aligned now.
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We've got a lot of grants to apply for.
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We've got a
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to have the capacity to absorb it now without modifications and can put in a gravity system and tie into an existing lift station. and And I think we'd be remiss if we did not take advantage of the opportunity today to just get this done. I know it's going to be inconvenient.
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I'm not going to want to drive around detours,
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but this is really important for our children and their children and their children. And this river is sick, and it's dying, and all those other programs will help, the clams and the oysters, etc.
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But until we stop the source of the pollution, we can't fix the river.
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how do we approve it and we fall short of the budgetary means and other individuals that's on the system
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yes would have to be
paid for somehow assuming the project were to proceed and you
know
you. have a deficit in in the funding i would suspect um it would uh the sewer enterprise fund would have to uh step up and cover cover the balance um or alternatively as the statute provides and i think the code would all city code would ultimately provide
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you know there's there are some statutory requirements regarding setting sewer rates and you know fair and equitable rates. So, you know I don't want to speculate, but you
know
it's something that you would have the city would have to look at um because this particular project, as I understand it, only
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I'm talking about
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um benefits to the river or any other, you know, secondary benefit, um just just just for purposes of, um you know, providing the sewer treatment and disposal and providing the service.
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think
we're about
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exactly
will
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the
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on Indian River Drive, the main line. ‸ And manholes, all the way up and down Indian River Drive. yeah The north section would stop north of Dixon, and it would tie into Indian Circle because there's a gravity system that's already there that that that that was extended. And it exists today. And we're that's our starting point going north. Okay? So from that point, it already connects via gravity over to Dixon and into the lift station. For the area south, uh that ties into the southern end because there's a there's a gravity manhole down at the south end of Indian River Drive that we tie into. Okay. And that was the reason why, really, that's why it was designated as ‸ septic to sewer. ‸ made the most sense because you look at the look at your existing layout and you've got access to gravity. uh There's lots of sections in the county that they have there's there's nothing nearby, and I think that's probably part of the reason why they had the advanced septic option. so In this case, we're considering it just because we got some crazy costs and some unfunded potential costs and some other nuances that need to be considered.
Because i've I've had some calls from individuals who live
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into ‸ to get rid of their septic systems, too. as you know As I'm saying, it's easier to expand up in that neighborhood.
Assuming that the the only people
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Folks on
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in this project. Okay.
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it over.
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come up ‸ the phone Go ahead.
Hello. My name is Astrid Hurd. um I am one of the 92 homeowners affected by the septic to sewer and have attended the community meetings, which have answered a lot of questions, but have also left many things unanswered. um One of the unanswered questions is definite validation that the septic seepage is the main and primary cause of the pollution in the lagoon. Let me just say that I've lived here for over 50 years, not in
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but in the area. And I've seen the lagoon fluctuate in its quality. I also watched the Banana River get cleaned up back in the 80s and 90s. Had nothing to do with septic. I feel like our 92 homes again are a small part if it is septic of the problem, because I know that on Merritt Island, there are many, many homes that are still on septic near the river.
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different cities um competing for money that should be a project that everyone benefits from. I mean, i I think right now what's happening is I think it's a good idea theoretically. Yay. Let's get these 92 homes onto sewer. I don't think we're the only ones that that benefit from that um because of the Indian River Lagoon portion of the benefit. But um do we really know what we're dealing with? And I'm with the gentleman that got up and said, you know, we really need to do some more research. It would be nice to proceed, um and try to go forward with ‸ the sewage system. um understanding that a large part of the connection costs is still unfunded. Citizens don't know what grants they can apply for. um I saw some of the estimated costs. um
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um I have friends that do plumbing and septic and we have ballparked, um some of the costs. They were nowhere near below 25 000 for most of these homes because of the distance between the septics and the river. That is the big cost and
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So, you know, theoretically, it's a great thing to do,
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all, that we not really sure of. We haven't quantified it. And secondly, um that a lot of homeowners hesitate to spend, even though, you know, it's a nice thing to do. But, for example, um
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river um and I have another house behind it with another septic system.
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you for listening to me. I just wanted to address the fact that we have not fully addressed the issues that we are trying to resolve. Thank you.
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We did, um I forget how many geotech, uh way more than we normally do just because we knew the geology. I would say I think we did somewhere between 30 and 50 geotech borings on that one mile stretch. So, uh ‸ fairly frequent. And we only encountered rock in most of them. You know, in some areas, it's you know, because what happens is the, you know, the level of the rock will rise and fall underground, kind of like a wave. And in some areas you might hit rock two or three feet down. You might, some areas might be six or eight or
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feet. So if it's 10 or 15 feet, but
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in dirt above it and I don't have to drill it, you know? Or if I do drill it, it's very easy because it's not going through rock in that spot. So it can go through a lot faster, ‸ a lot quicker. uh if I have to dig through rock above it to get the sewer at the right level because I can't advance the drill, you know, then that, then that's, and that's what I can't predict. And that's why we have, we have two
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which is a very large range. And
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of that number. And,
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as of January when the plans were completed. uh you know, I'm looking at costs today versus January. They're very different. We know that those costs are rising. That's clearly, that's clearly ‸ Now that doesn't mean I can't get an updated cost estimate and then approach, um
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I can't get any more money from Save Our Indian lagoon because they are putting it based on the pounds of nitrogen removed and that's a fixed number based on the Tetra Tech report.
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Next on the list, um uh
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Day. um Thank you for the opportunity. I'm one of the homeowners also on Indian River Drive, and I've attended the uh the meetings. um I appreciate uh all the things that uh Mr. Walsh has mentioned. I think the big thing he mentioned at the very end is the question mark, because like um miss Hurd, uh do we really know ‸ What's causing the damage to it? And i got to draw your attention to this this report card that the other the other lady mentioned. And she said, uh water quality is improving, but seagrass is continuing to die, and we do not know why. uh
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And there's some other things mentioned, but there's no real answer to it. And, you know, if we're
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for our buck, don't we?
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something for our lagoon because we love our lagoon, right? The other thing I want you to notice on this report card is that we in
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get an F, but just down in Sebastian, their water's clear. They get a C. Why why are they doing so much better than we
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what What are they doing? In other words, that's a question mark. Secondly is, does does septic really contribute a lot to the damage to the lagoon? I mean, what if it's mostly,
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Do we know what the impact of septic is? Does anybody know? That's a question mark. And number three, uh Mr. Walsh mentioned, there's a lot of question marks with money. How much is it going to cost? How much do ‸ we have to pay? um Can we get a grant? Can we not get a grant? Can we? That's a big question. It's a huge question. For us on the river, but also for the city in general, the question remains. So we have until 2027 to collect money. I asked the council to to table this
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for the
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reasons. Number
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we don't know what's causing the big problem. We want to bang for our buck. Number
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is septic really causing a lot. Is it causing a lot and number
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is do we have a real grasp on the money that we're going to have to pay
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your map out. I attend that meeting sponsored by
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um We have that map that I shared with uh my members here. If
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correct? Because the only fresh water flowing river that flows north is St. John's, which is probably seven, eight miles away. So my point is, even to me, logically speaking, if we cleanse our water and the neighbor above us and the water is moving southward, you see the picture that I'm painting And that's the dilemma that I felt
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and uh I was concerned about.
Yeah, yeah.
but I
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Good evening. I'm with uh
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We've done it for projects all over the world, but we did it most importantly in 2016 uh under contract with Brevard County and tetratech to develop the economic impact model that led to the referendum. And I just wanted to recap some of those numbers. And in listening to the discussion,
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is based on expected monetary value, which is looking at degrees of risk and percentages and odds of things happening. And I've got some comments on that. But in in 2016, we very conservatively estimated that the value of restoring the lagoon the the present value
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billion
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to the county. of that Of that, um
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billion of that was benefit if we
fix
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the waterways, there would be increased property values uh increased tourism things like that but 4.3 billion of the 6.3 was the downside if we don't stop algal blooms from forming, if we get
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recall was had a
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nightmare that you know impacted that county and all of Florida very, very badly. um We did, in in particular, one thing for the homeowners to think about and
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to think about is the impact on property value. uh uh About
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billion of that number was property value impact of fixing the lagoon. So 2 billion of
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from fixing the lagoon uh there was a we we did a very formal assessment with the Space Coast Association of Realtors to get their thoughts on the impact that ‸ would have on property value. And the bottom line was that they felt that there could be a 22 improvement in property values like those under consideration for this project that are basically one or two houses adjacent to
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we kept having issues with
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I want to communicate is that there's a lot of uncertainty in the future. uh But the one thing is certain is if we don't stop the nutrient pollution, we risk the 4.3 billion dollars of downside
thank
you sir
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Thanks much for your time. If I may, to begin with, we've heard a lot
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And at this point, if I may start, the
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beautiful, glossy presentation that has been done with Tetra Tech. It's a marvelous start, if I may say. But when I look at what's being proposed here for these 92 properties, much of the data that's being submitted to you, and I have great empathy for you in this decision making process that you're getting ready to go into, but when I look at the data that's being presented to you, it has holes in it everywhere with basic, overly broad assumptions that have been made for, as an example, you know, the contribution, as some of the ladies have asked here, how much are we really putting a phosphorus and nitrogen into the lagoon from these 92 ‸ properties? It ranges within their document of anywhere from
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roughly, of nitrogen that
we are
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dumping from these 92 properties, assuming that the assumptions that
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and said with with a lot of a lot of enthusiasm and sensationalism
to leaky septic tanks. When most of us that have septic tanks know of the condition of our tanks
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our toilets don't flush, we have to have them pumped. But go back to those basic numbers of 2,400 to 4,000 rough pounds of nitrogen that we will remove by eliminating potentially the septic tanks,
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that we have. And keep in mind that with that, there's an additive that goes with it. For those 92 properties, as an example, if they use 5,000 gallons each month, multiply ‸ that by 12, take it at 0.3 to 0.5 liters of phosphorus and nitrogen,
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and do the arithmetic, And you'll find that the margin gets down to where it's almost nothing that we're beginning to try to justify spending anywhere from 6 to 11 million dollars.
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about what will happen to Indian River Drive, this beautiful scenic Indian River Drive.
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But when I look at the impact of this and finishing up, it is so marginal for 6 to 11 million dollars. Wow.
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one question, and I say this and quit. How many pounds from these additional 92 properties of nitrogen does he anticipate will be dumped into the lagoon just from the
affluent
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from the wastewater treatment plant?
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Oh, okay.
Yeah, councilman, staff, and my neighbors.
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I'm a retired military from New England, a carpetbagger.
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river for the last, or near the river for about 20. And when I got here, I was digging clams with my toes, and I was fishing shrimp out of the river, and I saw the strippers and the clams and so forth. It was a wonderful place, and I've seen it deteriorate tremendously. Currently, my wife has lived on the river. She was born there, and she lived there her whole life since 19... Well, never mind. But anyway. So for the last 20 years, anyway, I've just ‸ seen a real drop in the quality of the water. There's no seagrass. There's very limited... I don't see crabs anymore. We've grown oysters, tried to support what we can. We don't have the salinity for clams, but we've ‸ tried to do whatever we can for the lagoon. It seems to me the lagoon is bigger than what we can take on as a city or even as a county. And I don't know what they're doing. They've been talking about doing things for a long time, but I haven't seen that much progress.
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Flag: a language review questioned the wording · 01:58:21–01:58:25 · unresolved: the words are not shown (unclear audio); listen to the recording
position, because the decisions are very important. And I'd like to point out, I have a copy of a 2006 memorandum that the city of Cocoa, Florida... You were the mayor at the time, sir.
and you tabled this very thing in 2006. That was 16 years ago, right? Okay, we've made no progress since then. There was no money allocated
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And so I can understand you tabled it. If my mother-in-law's
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I can understand why it was defeated. But ‸ I just hesitate to have this thing tabled, because I really think that some action has to be taken.
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That's all. Thank you.
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Hello. I'm Dan Womack, and I live along Indian River Drive. I live on [address]. And I can tell you that, you know what
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Well, it does, because I've seen the areas along ‸ the east side of the road are really, well, I guess you can say smelly. They're wet. ‸ Everything runs down compared to the west side of the road. So I look at the different options, and I have to say that I'm for the option number two, because it's kind of like, you know, you've got this big step that you have to take, but somebody has to take the first step. And, you know, you want to be the change. The city needs to be the change to start this process to help clean up this river, because
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And I'm thinking, ‸ after seeing what comes down my way for my house, I don't want to get in the water. I don't want to get in there without waders on, because it's ‸ pretty nasty. And I look at ‸ some of the other options, the option one, you know, that still leaves 35% of the sewage that is going to get in the river.
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Flag: numbers, amounts, negation or names differ between the machine readings · 02:00:46–02:00:49 · unresolved: the words are not shown (unclear audio); listen to the recording
or do we wait another 16 years before we do something? What are the costs going to be in 16 years? Do we have grant money then? Now we have the grant money to do this improvements.
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Also, the option three, you know, to not mandate it to somebody, to everybody. What's going to be their cost in a couple years when their old septic tank malfunctions, when there's no grant money? The cost to do this thing now is there.
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it
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just need to get it done. And that's all I've got to say. Thank you, guys.
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Yeah, I'm not going to look up the atomic number of nitrogen and figure out the weight.
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made by the gentleman who was at the podium was that he believes that every drop that comes out of a septic system or that into a
sewer
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system goes to the river. And that is incorrect.
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So that's also, remember, we have Bracco Pond. We have three or four different places. And
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dispose our stuff down the deep well that they have where we share. So that, you know, making that comparison doesn't quite add up.
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You know, I do ‸ understand his point.
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Yeah.
Okay.
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Flag: numbers, amounts, negation or names differ between the machine readings · 02:02:48–02:02:49 · unresolved: the words are not shown (unclear audio); listen to the recording
Okay. Thank you. I'm not going to present the whole handout.
I
just wanted your information. No
problem. We're trying to accommodate you, Mr. Riggs.
Take
one pass around,
please.
Okay. Make sure I see the clerk gets one, sir.
Yes, sir. I included enough copies for everybody in the U.
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Indian River Lagoon. And I think if we take care of the lagoon, it's gonna ‸ take care of us.
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good situation. The
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The answer is yes. I'm not gonna ‸ walk you through every acronym,
but
front and back of what I handed out lists several acronyms of grants that are available that we have not applied for yet, that we can and should apply
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Repeat, more than cover the estimated cost.
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installing. That question was asked earlier. Other ‸ cities in Brevard County, other municipalities in Brevard County have already gotten this money and are almost done.
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I recognize it's a big risk, ‸ and bears some more study. The study that should be done is, what are the grants? Apply for them, get them. So that's basically the ‸ first page of that PowerPoint, is the grants that are out there can cover the cost of ‸ the conversion, more than cover the high end of the conversion. If you flip to the second page, please. So ‸ I would urge the City Council to direct staff to acquire this grant funding and move forward on the septic sewer conversion.
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I think the research I've seen is 65% is the high end. It really, the range is zero to 65%, depending on how well you maintain it.
By ordinance,
they
have to meet 65 in the county in order to qualify.
And do they stay at 65? So, but at any rate, so best case, ‸ that's a third of sewage going into the river from these properties that are right next to the river.
‸ You
don't have to be a scientist to think about raw sewage going into the river.
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of decentralized, advanced septic systems are going to be better than our centralized wastewater treatment, that is why most communities install sewer systems.
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I was shocked to realize,
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But that's life in Brevard right now. We need to get started on doing better. We need to stop delay in applying for grants. We should direct City staff to apply for the grants so that we can move forward on this conversion. The
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It's a start ‸ on moving forward and establishing the infrastructure so that we can hook up more houses. And
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we take care of the lagoon, it will take care of us. Thank you.
I have a question. I have a federal question. It's going to come from you, Mr. Wallace.
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and if we ascertain them,
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And I'm forcing you to come aboard. And I get the environmental issue.
I'm forcing you
to
come aboard.
Would it be more... What's
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it be more using a sewer
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because ‸ that's the meter that we actually monitor. So, you know,
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systems now? ‸ I don't know. Sometimes they can go a couple of years without having to pump them out. But that's also, you know, you don't know the actual... You're still polluting the river and you still have all the other things that are going on with it. So, ‸ probably folks who've been on septic could probably have a better idea, but I would imagine they would all say that they're probably going to pay more for the service from the city.
But,
again, this is not, you know, there are economic decisions and then there are water quality
in
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the river issue. So, you know, ‸ they're both at odds with each other, certainly.
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Good evening, Mayor.
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live on the river and an owner of a property in a city
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get grants, and the money went away because our city decided not for us. So, I'm aware of that experience and what it's like to continue to have septics because somebody kicked the can down the road. Excellent presentation, Mr. Walsh. I appreciate that at the beginning.
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the city clerk if anyone's looking for it.
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require all homeowners to connect to the sewer system once completed.
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And thank you, Mr. Riggs, for those additional grant sources. If the cost overruns, if they occur for public infrastructure are greater than the grant funding, then the cost ‸ will be paid for.
And
the question in the meeting materials is
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I think we should add that ‸ to the equation. But regarding who pays for the overages, I'm open to A or B or a blend of both. So, if the homeowners pay, if the city, if it gets absorbed into city costs, if there's a blend of both, if we can find extra funds, I support that.
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I heard from owners, many who are supportive of the project, and some who are concerned about uncertain cost overruns. If there's not adequate public participation tonight, which it looks like we have quite a bit of participation, council could hold a special community meeting to hear additional views. Due to the cost sensitivity of this project for homeowners, if impact fees are assessed, I believe, and which maybe they can be avoided, or you can decide not to do that.
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overall project costs and not be relegated to other city projects, as we heard last week was a possibility. I feel it's unfair to impose a mandatory burden onto the 92 homeowners and then leverage the funds to be used somewhere else.
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has the greatest possibility of reducing lagoon contamination. While imposing a mandatory connection may seem unacceptable to some of the impacted homeowners, ‸ the project will have an ongoing benefit for each of the affected homeowners, as it will remove the risk of septic collapse or failure that all septic owners are saddled with. This is a significant burden that can be removed from each of the 92 homes.
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could be $50 a month for the advanced septic system, if the homeowners decide to do that, and then they still have a septic system, and it could need maintenance that goes above that. So there are costs in any scenario. But this cost would do the best benefit to the lagoon. It would help the homeowners increase their property values by connecting to the city sewer. It would help the whole community. I agree with the folks that say that it would help the whole community. It would benefit those homeowners. I think the city should decide to go forward with the project
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Thank you.
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Okay,
hello. I'm Tammy Carter. I'm one of the 92 homeowners on Indian River Drive. And I'm going to give you a different engineering view from the rest of them. The money was
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If you take the $5 million, it comes out to be $61,542 per household. You add in the low engineering cost, that raises it to $71,739 per house.
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infrastructure. Now then, if you look at the infrastructure,
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ballpark, $25,000 is probably low. I know it's going to be low in my particular instance. So if you
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which is kind of funny, but we won't get into that, that we're paying an impact to do clean something up. The total
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is to $115,638 for each homeowner. It's total cost of the project, assuming that's within budget. Now think about that, $115,000
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each house
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And the question is, according to the chart that they showed, referencing for the Brevard County Natural Resources, the sewer is the fourth highest contribution to the nitrogen. Not number one, number four. So we're going to spend that kind of money to solve the number four problem. And you look at the difference.
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septic systems.
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the stormwater. For example, I live by one of the things, and I can see it pouring down from one down
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I'm sure that does a lot more than my septic system, which is maintained.
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how to pay for it. All of us here are concerned about the cost. Because you look at it, okay, yeah,
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we
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got all these grants. Maybe we get them, maybe we don't. If we don't get them, theoretically, we could be looking at $50,000 a homeowner. And none of us can, you know, come on,
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So what do you think we're going to get $50,000 for it?
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but then we're maintaining our septic systems. It benefits everybody in Brevard County and everybody in Cocoa. Otherwise, we wouldn't be talking about this. So, and then ‸ the other thing is, the fertilizer does more damage than septic systems. Everybody agrees to that. However, you cannot, you know, ban fertilizers. So my question to you, if you cannot ban fertilizers, how can you mandate connection? Yes, I know there is the state mandate, but I also know that the state and county mandate is not being enforced. And even according to the Brevard County's website, current laws is under the septic section of that thing. ‸ Current laws in Florida prevent local governments from creating new regulations that would prohibit a property owners from being able to utilize their property for their intended purposes. And by definition, if you mandate it, that could fall in that category. Anyway, so thank you. I am advocating for either tabling and answer some of the questions or give us the option for advanced septic. Thank you.
‸ Mr. Anthony, I have a question for you.
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Yes, sir.
Anthony G.
The biggest concern I think that I have and also most of the residents has is dealing with the
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given a sheet from Mr. Riggs dealing with some of the
grants
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that are ‸ available. Are these grants available?
And
then also, can these same grants be used for the homeowners overages, possible overages?
Yes. ‸ Some grants can be used for only construction and some grants for only homes and some for both. So
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Johns
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can only be used for construction.
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for the homeowner connection side.
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And then, ‸ as I explained to the city manager,
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we've also been able to request funds from our legislators annually, but they request that we have applied for grants and been diligent about pursuing what we can get. And then where we come up short, we can request more money through the state directly. So there are many available options.
Mr.
Mayor
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had a question for him as well.
Anthony, specifically on the sheet that we were given, the
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Are those available to cities? Because I don't see any city grants on this, and it may just be because they ‸ didn't have that information available. But I guess the question to you ultimately is we know ‸ about the St. Johns Water Management grants.
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We know if we have all of those things in place, we can then go to the legislature and ask them for an appropriation. But are ‸ the grants listed on the number two available to cities?
So this is the prior year, and they were available to any government entity.
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apply. It was good timing for us. ‸ I know some of the cities have also applied for funding. In particular, I'm aware of Melbourne, ‸ West Melbourne and Rockledge having applied.
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applied as their own entity for funding. So any government entity can apply. This Protecting Floor Together grant, ‸ currently the open portal is for coastal resilience. I believe the wastewater funds for this year have not opened up yet, but they typically open in the summer for applications.
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They have applied in the past.
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is applying for this year. I've not had a conversation with anyone, but...
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have received grants. Okay,
they
got it.
Okay.
Yeah.
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just let me, let me, let me, just for clarification. So what potentially would be available to the city would be, and I'm looking at this chart here,
would
be the St. John's Water Management District Grant. That was in Jack's presentation.
The
Section 319, which is the FDEP grant. Yes. Obviously, ‸ the Sorrel match funding, and then under number two, would it be only the Protecting Florida Together grant and not the regional resilience entity grants?
As I understand, ‸ the current resilience grant that's open right now is for actual planning purposes.
For planning
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So
the legislator and the governor has been staging this grant cycle for different purposes to help cities achieve some of their coastal goals. The wastewater one hasn't reopened this year. Okay. So they're using, it's ‸ under this umbrella, this grant umbrella, but the particular wastewater-focused portal, like grant application portal, is not open yet.
Okay. All right.
Gotcha.
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I appreciate it.
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is the typical middle average. Okay. So we have a project just south on us one, um and, um
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So they got together and decided to use one plumber in bulk and we're able to get
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hook up. And then they would
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of that.
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City manager, ‸ you finished, sir? Yes, sir.
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‸ all right
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um I'm, I'm, I'm in construction, been in construction now for 19 years.
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the tone is set for construction, the tone is set. Okay. So, so the question is from 2006 when it, when it was tabled,
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Correct.
I
haven't
seen
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to go find it.
I i would love to have that. um
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I know. um ‸ but because, because we know, I mean, just like, uh I don't think eggs are going down,
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up, but just what it is.
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we really have fluctuating is probably gas, uh which is pretty high too.
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Just i I would love for us to receive that, um the council as well, so we can so we can see what that cost was at that time, which we know it was a lot lower than where we are um right now. um But that's all I had, sir.
Thank
you very much,
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I think everyone is taking copious notes
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uh the
uh
hooking up the sewers, septic, good conversation to that from everybody here.
The,
our ultimate goal is to clean up the Indian River Lagoon. Back in the day, from
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to Titusville, there was no access north. They built that
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Canal later
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Dutch Inlet, which brought fresh water in, but it mostly went down the Banana River. The Space Center took over, they redirected all that with
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Control and etc We have large nitrogen in the water, and I have not figured out why we have not banned fertilizer. I don't use fertilizer at my house. I don't even water my grass at my house. but Eventually, it's going to be mandated from Ocean to St. john's River sewer systems. It's coming, because they're starting to find stuff in that St. john's River, and those people are very picky about their river I'm afraid of the cost. I worked construction also for 20 years, and I sat right in here my third month or fourth month saying, we're going to see an increase of cost of 40 across the board, and that's what we've seen right now. We got the pay raises for our employees so they could at least survive this little crisis that's
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it off, you're going to run cost up later on. the whatever we do here tonight is going to affect us for a long, long time. We just have to think that 92 people want to help the community out by making a sacrifice, getting their lawns tore up, getting everything messed up. ‸ to get the sewers hooked up in front of their house, riding up and down River Road. that's a sacrifice And I'm actually for that. Not because I want you to suffer, but we've got to do something. I, not too long ago, walked down the
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River from Twin Lakes, where
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528 Causeway, still called the b line I didn't see one fiddler crab. I used to catch hundreds of fiddler crabs
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trout, go home and eat them.
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of my life. I'm 61 years old ‸ I was in that river when I was five. We've got to figure out how to do this without affecting later on decisions, later on environment, later on cost to the city.
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people upset, but we had to do it because our employees needed the pay raises. And it's long term because I stated the 40 increase. So this is going to be a tough decision for all of us. So we got to do it right. And I think we can do it right. That's all I have to say.
are
there grants for overage
I would recommend planning for your overages and applying for grants from that perspective. you know So the easier grants being the DEP grants, you know target those,
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John's grants and any legislative appropriations that you know could help you know cover the Delta.
Have you heard of any grants
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Yes, I've um one of the projects I am managing was initially denied. But then we were able to get ‸ this last year because of the increase
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The bar lowered for the amount of projects they were taking. So, um
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and
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city has through us, completed plans, this would be the the time to see, you know, if this is the right, ‸ you know,
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grants would, you know, qualify. You know, this project would qualify for grants. So, you're you're ready to ask for funds.
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yes
So, the different grant types so the Sorrel being the first, um we pay on a cost per benefit. So, the amount of pounds kept out of the lagoon. So, if some homeowners decided to not connect and they weren't connected um within the contract with the county would include um some language that that final payment wouldn't be made because not all the benefit was realized. The DEP grants would include similar language. um
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application. so um they they they also prefer that you already have up to 90 of the people signed on and agreeing to participate. But if you have a history of having enforced a mandatory connection, they will just they'll take that ordinance. So, we used to get the St. John's funding. We used um the proof that the county enforces the connection ordinance and um they agreed to that we would follow through with that rule.
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um
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mandatory connection, even
if
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their cost is covered, based on his assessment, based on indication. I mean, I i i really want to, before I really
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a decision, I'd rather, um the devil is in the
details.
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you know what I'm saying? ‸ I don't want to play the game of
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that if I'm going to mandate someone to connect, I want to make sure all my
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are in a row. ‸ That's my only concern, because
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to those that say I have a perfectly operating septic system
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You know what I'm saying? It's providing
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I know from the state law about connections. Let me ask one other question. If you sell your home on the riverfront and you're on a septic system, do you, before you sell your home, and will your septic system be inspected?
No, state law does not require that. um Some mortgages or mortgage companies or insurance companies do require it. um ‸ FHA or some
other
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USDA, but the state law explicitly says it's not required.
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at law Okay.
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the floor by the chair and
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we said all
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