Built from the City's minutes records — no AI-written textBriefing final
The City's record
What the City's record shows
Built only from the City's minutes (462_PZ_Reg_Minutes_10_06_2021.pdf). Page numbers are the minutes' own. Discussion is in the minutes' text; it is not summarised here.
Attendance (the roll call)
Listed present when the roll was taken: Michael Dobrin, Al Washington, Todd Anderson, Marilyn Green, Susan Mock, Russell Sengel, Justin Simpson, Aleck Greenwood, Debbie Joyce
(Checked against the ballots and the printed roll lines; no independent membership list of this board is available to confirm that the roll is complete.)
Listed absent: Jeri Blanco, Jesse Heredia
Also listed as present (staff and other roles): Kristin Eick (Board Attorney), Alix Bernard (Interim Planning and Zoning Manager), Monica Arsenault (Recording Secretary)
Named on at least one ballot later in the meeting: ANDERSON, DOBRIN, GREEN, GREENWOOD, MOCK, SENGEL, SIMPSON, WASHINGTON (participation, which can differ from the roll: arrivals and departures are in the minutes' text)
Adopted actions (5)
to APPROVE THE OCTOBER 6, 2021 AGENDA AS WRITTEN (moved by GREEN, seconded by SENGEL); PASSED 8-0; ayes: DOBRIN, WASHINGTON, ANDERSON, GREEN, MOCK, SENGEL, SIMPSON, GREENWOOD; nays: none — the City's minutes, pp. 1–2
to APPROVE THE JUNE 2, 2021 MINUTES AS WRITTEN (moved by GREEN, seconded by MOCK); PASSED 8-0; ayes: DOBRIN, WASHINGTON, ANDERSON, GREEN, MOCK, SENGEL, SIMPSON, GREENWOOD; nays: none — the City's minutes, pp. 1–2
to AMEND THE ORDINANCE TO MAKE THE $50 FEE AN INTIAL FEE AND THEN REQUIRE A RECERTIFICATION EVERY YEAR AFTER (moved by GREEN, seconded by ALTERNATE MEMBER GREENWOOD); PASSED 7-1; ayes: DOBRIN, WASHINGTON, ANDERSON, GREEN, SENGEL, SIMPSON, GREENWOOD; nays: MOCK — the City's minutes, pp. 4–5
to RECOMMEND APPROVAL TO CITY COUNCIL OF ORDINANCE NO. 14-2021 AMENDING CHAPTER 5, ANIMALS AND FOWL TO ALLOW FOR BACKYARD CHICKENS TO INCLUDE THE BOARD’S AMENDMENT TO THE ORDINANCE (moved by ANDERSON, seconded by WASHINGTON); PASSED 7-1; ayes: DOBRIN, WASHINGTON, ANDERSON, GREEN, SENGEL, SIMPSON, GREENWOOD; nays: MOCK — the City's minutes, pp. 4–5
to ADJOURN THE REGULAR MEETING OF OCTOBER 6, 2021 (moved by ANDERSON, seconded by SENGEL); PASSED 8-0; ayes: DOBRIN, WASHINGTON, ANDERSON, GREEN, MOCK, SENGEL, SIMPSON, GREENWOOD; nays: none — the City's minutes, pp. 4–5
Money named in the minutes' motions (what each motion did with the amount, in its own words)
$50 — P&Z: decided in an adopted motion. “AMEND THE ORDINANCE TO MAKE THE $50 FEE AN INTIAL FEE AND THEN REQUIRE A RECERTIFICATION EVERY YEAR AFTER” (motion result: PASSED; the City's minutes (462_PZ_Reg_Minutes_10_06_2021.pdf, pp. 4–5); fiscal period not recorded)
Agenda (the City's wording)
The City's agenda for this meeting is on file (PZ_Reg_Agenda_10_06_2021), but its item list has not been read reliably by machine yet, so no outline is shown.
Transcript Partial transcript
Machine transcription of the meeting recording. The words are the recognizer's, except where a passage is marked as corrected or machine re-recognized; most have
not been checked against the audio, so words, numbers and names can be misheard.
It describes what was said. It cannot establish who voted how, an amount or an outcome — the City's
minutes do that (above).
A time links to its passage, and “Copy link” copies that link. No recording can be started from here.
167 suspect passage(s) marked in place.
How this transcript was made. New machine transcription of the whole recording, with 11 voices separated from the audio.
9 short machine repair(s) (11 word(s)) are labelled in place, with the original words beside them: an ordinary word was replaced only where two further machine readings agreed on a different one.
Checks run on this transcript: the recognizer's own warning signs, whether a voice was detected where the words are and a language review for likely mishearings.
A second, independent machine reading was compared with it word by word: the same words for 90.3% of 6,907 content words.
Dotted words (170 places) are ordinary wording differences: hover or tap to see the other reading.
167 passages (24% of the words) are marked suspect: their words are not shown ("unclear audio") and support no statement: numbers, amounts, negation or names differ; the language review questioned them; or no voice was detected there.
Agreement between two machine readings is not verification.
Speakers were separated by voice. A plain name rests on evidence tied to that voice; “provisional” is a name from an earlier text-only pass and is not verified; “Speaker N” is an unidentified voice.
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We have a second? Second. Okay. All in favor say ‸ aye. Aye. Opposed? Okay. And then we get to the minutes. The minutes of the last meeting in June, four months ago.
Okay. Motion to approve. We have a second? I second. Okay. Thank you. All in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed? Okay. And now we're going to get it to the heart of our meeting. Uh, well, we have old business. And we're going to get on to the new business now, this high-tech world we live in on discussed chickens. We're not talking about the people that serve in Washington, but anyway, I didn't say that.
evening. So, what you have before you tonight is an ordinance in regards to backyard chickens. Um, just to, to start you off, um, and give you a little background. In, uh, February of 2017, the city implemented a backyard chicken pilot program that was, um, um, in place from February of 2017 to 2019 to, as a trial run to see how it worked. Um, it is my understanding that there are two, uh, residents who participated in this process or program. And,
to this. So, um, that, that did not participate in the proper process as far as having chickens in their backyard. So, um, ‸ it has been brought before us again to look at making this a full-fledged program as opposed to just, um, the pilot program that was, that we had from 2017 to 2019.
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could have these chickens if they so desired. So, um, I put together a little map just to kind of visualize for you guys what that looks ‸ like as, as far as looking at the city as a whole. Um, you can see that there are, it's the majority of single family residential homes. That's basically what it is. Um, and, and so you can see that in front of you. And then, um, I'm going to go over some of the highlights, um, from what was previously presented at, if you want me to go back to the map, Alec?
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So those are three zonings that, where you're allowed to have the chickens. So we'll go over some highlights from, um, what that program looks like and what's in, uh,
being proposed is that, um, basically, um, it, you would have to obtain a permit. It'd be $50. Um, you have to have evidence that, you know, you've gone to, uh, university of Florida ag extension class and, and know how to take care of these chickens. And, um, the idea would be that you could have up to four chickens on your property. And I say chickens because it should be noted that not roosters, only chickens. Roosters are very loud. Chickens are not. Um,
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If you had side neighbors, um, they have to be enclosed. You can't have them in your front or side yards. This is literally backyard chickens. Um, the other thing is, is that this is for your own personal use. This is not for commercial consumption. You're not going to start a chicken farm on your property. Um, and that, um, the coops also must be screened and enclosed. So, from your neighbors. So, the idea is not to adversely impact the neighbors around you if you desire to go through with this program.
Can I ask a question? Thank you. Uh, the complaints. I'd like to know what, with all the guidelines that you're supposed to follow to be able to have the chickens in your yard. What were some of the complaints? Because, obviously, that's not a noise. Roosters are not allowed.
Well, I think that it, it, I don't know the exact details. You know, I just followed up with code enforcement and said, have you had any, what, what's the status of what's happened? And my understanding is, I think it, it was like, well, the neighbor next door has chickens kind of thing. And so, then they have to go and investigate and find out if they did and, you know,
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but, um, this is only addressing chickens. There's been a big movement in the past, I would say, five to seven years to allow people to have their own fresh eggs.
So, what will happen is that this will be an ordinance that's presented before city council, and then it will be put into our code after the ordinance is adopted.
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I don't have to pay $50 to have a dog, and dogs are louder than chickens. Hmm. You know what I'm saying? So. It's like it's a tax if you want a chicken.
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That is a lot of money. And I remember without mentioning that, uh, that he, there were other people that agreed with him, but not enough for the vote to go. And it was reduced from 75 to 50, but he was on the opposing side as well. Back then.
‸ I was going to say, um, so unlike a dog or another type of pet, um, this ordinance does contemplate that there's a site inspection that goes on with the coop and everything. So I think that's where the idea of the.
staff. I would say you need to say, even though you went over it with us. You got people that think they can have four chickens. Well, they don't realize a rooster isn't a chicken. I'm just saying we're talking general public here, which is it needs to be stated in there.
I understand that as well. I think I think maybe one of the things that maybe need to be brought up as an instead of. It needing to be a permit to have the chickens, maybe it's a special $50 permit for the coop. So that way you're not paying a building permit fee and then you're also paying a fee for the chicken coop. That's the right thing you need to build your right. Correctly. So you still need to pull a permit for any structure built on your property within city limits. Yep. And then maybe we can try to restructure that and just make it a special fee for the coop itself and file that under the license of having the chickens.
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other than having them as residential pets who are offering them eggs, because they're not allowed any commercial type of access. And then on top of that, you know, when you come forth with dogs that breed. I mean, as long as they're not being bred for sale, there's no real regulation on that either until it becomes a problem.
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So my understanding is that would be handled by code enforcement. And it would take the standard process just like any other code that would be in violation.
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If someone actually has five or six chickens, they're in a coop, they're quiet. But are we really going to spend resources to send people into backyards?
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neighbor, if my neighbor has a fence and I call city ordinance and city ordinance shows up and says, well, they have a fence. I can't look in their backyard because I can't see.
be on the side of my house. Can you check my roof to make sure it's within the city ordinance? And oops, he looks over there. It would be the same thing for a, um, for an illegal search. It wouldn't be disclosed. He wouldn't be able to get any fines.
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Um, I don't know the reason for the complaint. I don't have the specific details of the, of the complaints. I just know that there were four of them in that two year period. So.
got better. And I have to tell you that this is, this is pretty standard for the course. We have a lot of these annual permits that in different scenarios, um, that are done by policy.
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run into it a lot in real estate, you know, Melbourne, there's chickens everywhere. They have the coops, you know, um, it's more a placement of where the coops are. Right. As I understand it. Um,
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It's a, it's a, it would be an annual fee, yes. And the idea is that there are some times that you might have chickens and you have them for a period of nine months or so and then you realize that you've moved or, you know, things have happened. And so it's really a way for us to, to keep up with what's active and ‸ current.
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so it's sunset in 2019, February of 2019. And so when it's sunset, no more. There was nothing that addressed it, which is why it's back before you today, so that it can become an official code. And, and be on the books.
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the idea being that when you first establish this, ‸ is that there's a $50 fee and then the next year when you go to ‸ recertify, it's just we confirm that, yes, it's still exactly the same, you know, without that fee
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then it's fine. It's just that whenever you make any alterations, you have to go through the ‸ permit process. ‸ There's things that need to be done to the coop. So, I think that it does need to be separated and I'm comfortable with that also.
four chickens, you're only going to need like a four by eight, you know, coop. It's going to be made lightweight. There's going to be dog houses that are built better than this that don't need permits.
Well, and so ‸ that's the idea is that you go out with that inspection, that first check-out, you know, and you go, okay, so this is, you know, in the center of the yard and it's that 10 feet back from the, you know, rear of the house and... Side
Right. Right. And to make sure that it's all properly established. And so that can be done with that registration fee that we talked about a second ago and maybe not necessarily with a building permit.
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Yeah, sorry ‸ to be clear. I think on the building code issue, it really is what whether or not it is exempt under the we don't the city doesn't have control over that, right? The Florida building code is set as state law. So it's an issue of whether or not it there are applicable building permits that need to be obtained based on what they're installing and whether they've changed, you know, making modifications. So that's really not something that I think the board should be as concerned about. And and the ordinance just provides that they would need to get any applicable building permits to the extent that they're necessary.
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mean, ‸ I think it would depend on what what it is they're building and the building department would look at that and see whether or not as building permits necessary or if it if it is perhaps exempt.
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happens if they don't come back in to register, you know, me when the house is sold, the coop is there, you know, but the owners don't register because they know they had to or
‸ So typically what we do with other policies in our office in regards to following up on an annual basis is that right around this time of year, October, is that we go, oh, that's right. They have their, you know, XYZ from last year. So let me go and follow up with them and see if they're still in business. This is ‸ business related, of course. See if they're still in business and if they're still doing whatever it is that, you know, the registration is for. And we've had really positive feedback from from going that route. And so I think that it would be handled and addressed in the same exact manner. We just add it to our list, you know, of the
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There are rules about how many, how many cats or dogs that you can have. I don't know that rule off the top of my head. But there, there is definitely a
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Yeah, everything's on the Unicode. I know. And I can, I can follow up with you on that information if you'd like. I'll research it tomorrow and email you if you'd like.
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Because these things make so much noise. It's unbelievable. You know, you just make a slight noise and all the turkeys go, ugh. But they don't have any ordinances there at all. And that is a, that's a nice development. And the other people kind of building the fences, not a good thing. So, codes can be helpful.
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And so this is, um, this is everything that planning and zoning is looking at as far as what's on our radar and our, and, um, the things that ‸ we're focusing on on a daily basis. And,
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the hotel? Um, my understanding is that they have, they're really close to their, um, time that they're supposed to be doing a site plan submittal. So we're looking for that to be submitted any day now.
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Um, you know, this, this map in front of you really kind of deals with what is, um, up and coming. Uh, some of these are already under construction, but the majority of them are, um, are up and coming. And so, um, you ‸ know, a lot of times people will
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We are apparently the only board that still sits separated like this, with the tables and everything out. And so I was hoping to see if we could see how everybody feels about going back to the pre-COVID meeting.
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And they're extending it every month or so. And it was also considered for events, whether we should require people to wear masks or not. It seems like it's still in the air.
leave it like it is only because of the number of members. If the city changes the requirements of the mask, then I'd be more inclined, I guess. And if the ratio of the cases, it looks like it's going down, but I don't know if it's to continue as well as it has been. That's
my only concern. Maybe I'm not vaccinated. I am vaccinated. Well, I'm not. But that doesn't mean ‸ that's my choice. Right. But that doesn't mean you can't catch it.
Flag: numbers, amounts, negation or names differ between the machine readings · 00:40:33–00:40:35 · unresolved: the words are not shown (unclear audio); listen to the recording
Flag: numbers, amounts, negation or names differ between the machine readings · 00:40:51–00:40:54 · unresolved: the words are not shown (unclear audio); listen to the recording
Flag: numbers, amounts, negation or names differ between the machine readings · 00:40:58–00:41:00 · unresolved: the words are not shown (unclear audio); listen to the recording
Flag: numbers, amounts, negation or names differ between the machine readings · 00:41:08–00:41:12 · unresolved: the words are not shown (unclear audio); listen to the recording
Flag: numbers, amounts, negation or names differ between the machine readings · 00:41:15–00:41:15 · unresolved: the words are not shown (unclear audio); listen to the recording
Flag: words were replaced by a machine repair · 00:41:30–00:41:30 · machine repair: words replaced where two further machine readings agreed (not checked by a person)
Flag: numbers, amounts, negation or names differ between the machine readings · 00:41:58–00:42:02 · unresolved: the words are not shown (unclear audio); listen to the recording
Flag: numbers, amounts, negation or names differ between the machine readings · 00:42:09–00:42:16 · unresolved: the words are not shown (unclear audio); listen to the recording
Alec, did you have something you wanted to? I wanted to see what input that the staff might have in reference to where other businesses for tree board update.
there was a tree removed that a lot of the commercial property owners had, uh, had very serious concerns about it. Nobody was notified of it. All of a sudden the tree was gone. And I was curious if you had time to even fool with that Alex.
Flag: numbers, amounts, negation or names differ between the machine readings; a language review questioned the wording · 00:44:05–00:44:09 · unresolved: the words are not shown (unclear audio); listen to the recording